Talk:Garbage (album)

RfC: genre infobox dispute; Power pop & electronic rock

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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'Pop' is vaguely referenced and phrased by one reviewer who is being given undue weight; other cited reviewer's style descriptions (such as Billboard's power pop) are ignored. Electronic/electronic rock is being disregarded as legitimate, even in light of multiple sources provided that use such genres. --Lpdte77 (talk) 02:01, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

See penultimate subsections; Andrzejbanas & Dan56, the latter's involvement suitably requested by the former, push for giving undue weight to one reviewer's vague phrasing of a style for use in the infobox, ignoring other cited reviewers' descriptions that are much more concrete in nature and representative. Electronic/electronic rock is also disregarded, even in light of multiple sources provided that evidently state the genres. Editors have engaged in multiple Wiki policy violations in the process, including WP:UNDUE, WP:TE, WP:OWN, WP:OR. Refer to both subsections for full details: electronic rock, power pop.--Lpdte77 (talk) 02:06, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Garbage_(album)#Composition_and_style has been edited with more cited sources, providing a much more significant and useful synthesis, which includes multiple specific, relevant genres.--Lpdte77 (talk) 16:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Off-topic bad faith accusations

Here is evidence that Dan56 (similarly, to Andrzejbanas, who's history on such matters has been alluded to before here) has a history of cherry-picking, genre warring, neutrality, (the same issues he's carried here) and evidence of course, of hypocrisy here. I quote some excerpts: One Dan56 post: "He obviously prefers Allmusic's cited quote that the album defines "the sound and style of '70s hard rock", but The Village Voice{{'}]s Christgau is not only a more reputed rock critic than Allmusic's Erlewine, but his characterization is more explicit--he plainly says that this is a heavy metal album. Y2kcrazyjoker4, please get a consensus for this change you've been pushing before restoring it." + "I think it'd be common sense for the most explicit quote from the more notable individual holding that interpretation (WP:SUBJECTIVE) to be given more weight." -An editor in reply: "I strongly agree with Y2kcrazyjoker4, and I assert that this is yet another of Dan's pedantic genre arguments that is based unduly on just one source's opinion. Dan, please try to get your brain around the concept of using a preponderance of sources, and stop fixating on pushing only what one or two critics think among thousands of writers; I think Laser brain told you that last month." + "I also agree with Lewismaster's position, which I think can be said to be the running consensus here. Dan is playing yet another of his endless: 'I found sources that say what I want, so that's how's its gonna be!' games. Dan has problems a) understanding the meaning of a preponderance of sources, b) that a diversity of sources are a good thing, and c) that Christgau should not be pushed as the voice of all genres on Wikipedia." + "I strongly dislike your serial genre warring and I think that you waste lots of good-faith editing time across a broad swath of articles." -Another editor in reply: "Dan56, stop imposing your point of view. A consensus has been reached but you're still struggling to keep "heavy metal" first in the infobox. I just realized it's not the first time you've got troubles associated to your genre warring behaviour. Your childish reaction is pathetic and you should learn accepting a consensus instead of thinking you're absolutly right.Christgau called Zoso a "heavy metal album" but he's not alone on Earth and "hard rock" has also been extensively used to describe the album. I totally agree with GabeMc edits and you should accept them instead of blindly reverting him." -Another editor in reply: "Dan, I think I made it clear above that interpretation of this sentence in Guitar World is a minor point in the whole genre discussion here. But it's an example of where your interpretation of text can differ so radically from others', from much of what I've seen. Just on articles I work on, I can think of three occasions where, in my view, you've clearly misunderstood the point being made (usually going for the more negative slant, I have to say)...The problem is, you're frequently – I don't think that's an exaggeration – imposing your interpretation over those of other editors, with the ubiquitous stick to what the sources say, and I don't think you interpret correctly what the source is saying much of the time." All other editors there too disagree with Dan56 on the matter. More evidence that Dan56 is a genre warrior: [1] + user contribution history. All relevant to this matter as it supports his (and his buddy Andrzejbanas) primary objective and bias, on top what has already been pointed out/is readily apparent throughout this discussion. --Lpdte77 (talk) 05:40, 2 October 2014 (UTC) More evidence that Dan56 engages in all stated above, as it implicates too in his evident ways here: -Continued receipt of warnings from various editors, which he reverts, e.g, [2], [3], [4], [5] -Misleading inclusion of a band member's statement in the RfC poll below to emphasize his point, and a silent neglect to remove it. -Recent direct examples in an open RfC of Dan56 advocating against things he is completely using as his basis here: RfC 1, RfC 2, and I do not need to quote as it is the first commentary in both. What he is criticizing there is exactlyBold text what he’s engaging in here and people are supporting. --Lpdte77 (talk) 08:02, 3 October 2014 (UTC) Again, this user and his accomplice Andrzejbanas, whom requested Dan56's involvement, are only pushing for a biased pov, giving undue weight to one reviewer insofar as editing said reviewer's cited and vaguely stated opinion in the article to repeat the reviewer's sentiment so as to emphasize editor's standpoint: [6] --Lpdte77 (talk) 04:54, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Poll: Inclusion of pop

• Support per referenced material in Garbage_(album)#Composition_and_style → "take those influences and make them work in the context of a pop song"^[18], "the style sounds like pop ... Erlewine characterized all of its songs as pop..."^[19] Dan56 (talk) 14:50, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support per Dan56. Note that the reviewer isn't just tossing around a genre and actually explains it as well which I think makes this one a specifically stronger source. Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:55, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support per Dan56. The reviews cited - AllMusic especially - actively go out of their way to describe the album as pop above all other genres. "Garbage's self-titled debut has all the trappings of alternative rock -- off-kilter arrangements, occasional bursts of noise, a female singer with a thin, airy voice -- but it comes off as pop, thanks to the glossy production courtesy of drummer Butch Vig." Open and shut, if you ask me. Homeostasis07 (talk) 00:39, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
• No support. "The reviews cited"? What reviews? Allmusic is ONE review, that is being given undue weight by biased editors. And shocking that Homoeostasis who dislikes me and constantly goes against me claims support. --Lpdte77 (talk) 00:46, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Taking into account the recent addition of multiple sources in Garbage_(album)#Composition_and_style, which is sufficing with referenced specific styles, it is even more inappropriate to give undue weight (WP:UNDUE, WP:RSUW) to one reviewer's vague allusion to a vague umbrella term, 'pop', out the many others cited whose descriptions are direct and concrete. From the Composition and Style section, there is a selection of Power pop, alternative pop, electronica, trip-hop, dance; and alternative rock itself is noted by multiple reviewers. --Lpdte77 (talk) 16:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Sign your posts, Dan56 --Lpdte77 (talk) 03:25, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Where didn't I? Dan56 (talk) 03:31, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support as per @Dan56, Homeostasis07, and Andrzejbanas:. — CutestPenguin^Hangout 06:38, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I just noticed, in the Poll above Dan56 is quoting band member Butch Vig to support his view: Garbage_(album)#Composition_and_style → Vig explained that as in his opinion "the most exciting bands are those who incorporate all those elements of punk, funk, techno, hip hop, etc." Garbage would attempt to do the same and "take those influences and make them work in the context of a pop song. --Lpdte77 (talk) 06:52, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I noticed that Lapadite77 removed "Erlewine characterized all of its songs as pop" from the article, even though it's clearly relevant to the section and verified by the source cited. Dan56 (talk) 07:11, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Why do you still bother trying to misconstrue things? The reason for removing your WP:TE edit is stated clearly in the edit summary, anyone can see that: [7] and my other edit when you tried to put it back I'm: "the information IS stated, but editor wants to repeat phrasing to emphasize personal view.WP:REDEX, WP:TE, WP:IMPARTIAL,WP:DUE, WP:EW)" [8]. Reviewer's cited opinion was not removed, Dan56's reiteration of Reviewer's opinion (the one he wants to give undue weight to) was removed. --Lpdte77 (talk) 21:40, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• Lapadite77's correct that including a quote here from a member of the band – Vig saying: "take those influences and make them work in the context of a pop song" – is not on; it should be removed immediately. (And I wonder if any of those supports read the words as having come from a professional reviewer? Long shot perhaps.)

But really, Lapadite77, I think you've got to let it go. From my point of view, that BBC article's mention would be enough to merit inclusion of electronic rock as a genre: "Formed in 1994, Garbage delivered consistently anthemic electronic rock that occupied airwaves with conspicuous ease in the mid-to-late-90s." There's no mistaking there that the reviewer's talking about studio recordings, and we get a timespan starting in the mid 1990s, when the only Garbage music that could possibly have been "occupying airwaves" was this 1995-released debut album. But that's not the way Wikipedia works – which is unfortunate in many ways, but that's down to how people want to see it work. Although I sympathise, you've got to find the statement you want, from a reliable source. (Incidentally, I think you're wrong to blame Andrzejbanas. From what I've seen in the past, they've tried to eradicate this sort of problem by proposing that the genre field be removed from infoboxes. That makes a lot of sense, imo, but only to quell the behaviour of the few genre obsessives out there.)

Anyway, you asked me along here – all I can find is this from MusicHound's 1999 Rock: The Essential Album Guide: "The band's debut, Garbage [4 out of 5 "bones"], combined rock with dance music before such a combination was in vogue, and in a way that rock and dance acts are still trying to achieve – mostly without success." The entry also mentions the influence of Vig changing his musical direction with Garbage, "two years before the record industry began putting its eggs in the so-called 'electronica' basket"; also, that "Vow" showed "the band could have gone the full industrial route had it wished to do so." But unless "combined rock with dance music" helps you, it's all implied – nothing explicitly stating that "electronic rock" belongs here. Had a quick skim through some of the articles available at Rock's Backpages … nothing so far, I'm afraid. JG66 (talk) 09:03, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. Andrzejbanas clearly stated above he's ok with the inclusion of "pop, power pop, pop rock" beside Alternative rock. I've stated many times before I've no problem with the inclusion of Power pop (cited by Billboard I believe) and recounted by Vice. I've also proposed leaving Alternative rock in the infobox. His removal of all genres, including alternative rock, was not to quell anything but because he claims pop is dependent on alternative rock and that either can't be present alone there. The issue is giving undue weight to one reviewer who's phrasing is vague and who's merely alluding to 'pop' and without any definition. Again, what pop? What specific genre? Is it akin to Michael Jackson's pop, The Beatles' pop, Katy Perry's pop? What it is sonically? Is it trance, dance, electronic, power pop? Pop is popular - any style of music that becomes popular. Power Pop or alternative pop are both specific genres that are cited in the article. That's my point. Nothing else. And I seriously dislike giving undue weight to one reviewer to suit one's pov (which is against Wiki policy), especially when it's coming from a genre warrior who has clearly a history of doing that and has violated a plethora of Wiki policy's in the process. @JG66: Do you mind telling me why there is support for giving undue weight to one reviewer's vague phrasing, over other cited reviewers' specific genre depicitions (e.g., Billboard's)? Why is the Allmusic quote taking precedence, and not say the Billboard quote? Re: electronic rock, "you've got to find the statement you want" I'm not looking for a statement, but from the reviewers I've read, the sources put forth state either electronic or electronic rock in the context of the album, but again I only pointed this out because it's clearly considered by multiple reviewers a significant genre sonically present in the record; I actually don't care if it's in the infobox, as I said before. See, your MusicHound citation there, "combines rock with dance music" illustrates a specific genre of popular music - dance. That would be one that could be used. --Lpdte77 (talk) 22:15, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Lapadite77, I can see that, in the Wikipedia scheme of things, if alternative rock is to be included, then pop has to be also – because they each come from the same (AllMusic) source. I agree that Erlewine uses the term "pop" inconsistently, but at least one of the mentions there is pop as a genre/style. So when you say "I've also proposed leaving Alternative rock in the infobox" but not pop, well, I don't think that can happen. That's not to say I would support the inclusion of pop (I wouldn't, because I think it looks ridiculous to have pop and power pop, the last of which should definitely be included of course). But neither can I oppose it, given the guidelines. What I'm saying is Wikipedia advocates … I'm tempted to say "blind stupidity", but let's call it "redundancy". I wasn't including you among the "genre obsessives", by the way, but again I'm seeing Andrzejbanas' point of view, regarding an aversion you appear to have to "pop" being a recognised music genre. Yes, of course there are the blanket terms "pop[ular] music", "pop[ular] song", but right or wrong, "pop" is most definitely a genre. (As I say, ideally I'd want to drop "pop" from a list that might otherwise read "power pop, pop, alternative rock", in the interests of avoiding redundancy. But that's not on-message with the guidelines [misguided-lines?].)

JG66, "if alternative rock is to be included, then pop has to be also – because they each come from the same (AllMusic) source" That's an incorrect assumption that is now being made, the premise of which was originally used by Dan56. Alternative rock isn't there and hasn't been there since the inception of the article because Allmusic (a recently cited source for 'pop') mentioned alternative rock, but because it's the primary genre noted by most reviewers and bios, from back in the 90s and today. Regarding pop and Allmusic's phrasing, please see my reply to Andrzejbanas below for more specifics. You yourself understand that it is vague and inconsistent, so why still support giving undue weight to it, particularly when there is another cited review, Billboard's, that directly specifies a genre of popular music, Power pop, for the record, and denotes alternative rock: Garbage_(album)#Composition_and_style → "Garbage thrashes out power pop with enough skill and passion to rate among the cream of the alternative crop". Like you say, in the interest of avoiding redundancy, and for the sake of simplicity, it should be actually be reading alternative rock + power pop. And you put forth above: MusicHound's 1999 Rock: The Essential Album Guide, quoting "The band's debut, Garbage [4 out of 5 "bones"], combined rock with dance music before such a combination was in vogue, and in a way that rock and dance acts are still trying to achieve – mostly without success." - There is a specific popular music genre there -dance- and that can too be included, or at least stated in the article. Do you mind providing a link if you can?

And when is Dan56 going to remove his intentionally misleading use of a band member's statement? --Lpdte77 (talk) 07:39, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Lapadite77, you've lost me. Where are these other sources for alternative rock? Right now – and I'm sorry if I've misunderstood something along the way – but, to my mind, the only sense you're making is that Dan56 needs to remove that misleading statement from a band member regarding the album's genre. JG66 (talk) 10:36, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

JG66, Where did I loose you? There is one already in the article, as I stated and I quote from above: You yourself understand that it is vague and inconsistent, so why still support giving undue weight to it, particularly when there is another cited review, Billboard's, that directly specifies a genre of popular music, Power pop, for the record, and denotes alternative rock: Garbage_(album)#Composition_and_style → "Garbage thrashes out power pop with enough skill and passion to rate among the cream of the alternative crop". And I also said, regarding pop and Allmusic phrase, please refer to my reply to Andrzejbanas below. So what did you not understand specifically?

Myxomatosis57 noted one in an above subsection: [9] which states: "Garbage's self-titled debut album has an impressive swirl of acoustic and electric guitars, keyboards and swanky pop hooks that actually push alternative rock in a new direction." Why are you assuming Allmusic is the one source that uses and would use alternative rock, when it's common sense the parent genre would be the most noted across reviews and bios.--Lpdte77 (talk) 10:49, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Have to say, @Lewismaster:, I can't really see anything in those Rolling Stone and Record Collector reviews that states that the Garbage album is pop. I think the case for electronic rock, via the BBC article mentioned above, is a far stronger one in comparison. JG66 (talk) 05:25, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Note, MTV's review on Garbage's 2012 album, which is cited by Andrzejbanas himself on its page: "This crunchy electro-rock record might just turn out to be my favorite pop album of the year." - It defines it as an electronic rock record and notes it might make his favorite pop[ular] album of the year. Note the denotation. That is what is missing in Allmusic's 3 sentence review. It is not representative. Under Wiki's recommended sources page MTV "Primary Focus" is listed as "popular music". Why a continued ignoring here of the fact that pop music is itself NOT a genre, not a defined sonic style -it's an umbrella term, like indie/independent music is- (not to mention that one reviewer vaguely alludes to it and in an inconsistent manner), and should not be used in the infobox?--Lpdte77 (talk) 23:12, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I didnt' cite it, I expanded it. It really sounds like you are having issues with pop music being a style or not. I'd suggest bringing that more serious matter up with WP:GENRE instead of here. Countless albums are categorized as pop friend.Andrzejbanas (talk) 03:56, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh that's right, it was an expansion on quotes. No, that is not my issue here, I've clearly stated what it is. That is an underlying problem itself, one that is misconstrued, but the issue is with Erlewine's (Allmusic) vague, inconsistent phrasing given undue weight by editors and used as the sole arbiter for the infobox, if I haven't stated that clearly enough. Yes countless albums and bands are denoted pop albums or pop bands, but they are not referring to a band's or album's specific style/genre, but a classification of the band or album as popular/popular music. Like, I repeat from above, MTV stating "This crunchy electro-rock record might just turn out to be my favorite pop album of the year" - electronic rock is the genre, pop album is popular music album. MTV reviewer would not be saying "my favorite pop album" if the genre of the album was, say, death metal, because that is not a popular music style/genre. So, MTV would not be stating "this crunchy death metal record might turn out to be my favorite pop album of the year". I don't know why it's so hard to understand this or why users here are in denial of it. To expand on my point, if someone tells you 'oh there's this new great pop band or artist getting a lot of radio play' do you not question or find out what kind of music they play, what their actual sonic style is? What the music consists of? If they're doing dance, or trip hop, or disco, or synth pop, or power pop, or electro-rock and whatnot; e.g., if the pop artist is doing music like Adele's or Rihanna's, or Katy Perry's, or The Beegees', or Michael Jackson's music (those are all pop artists doing different styles/genres of music). That is an obvious response, because someone saying something is pop doesn't denote anything aside from that it's popular music, because pop isn't anything specific. Someone stating something is dance, or electronica, or any other specific genre is informative and categorical. So such is the case with the reviewer's statement you're all exalting. Evidently that fact here goes over the head and is repeatedly disregarded with something to the effect of 'this reviewer states this, so the term from what they stated will be used'. Allmusic's phrasing, apart from being vague and misleading is entirely inconsistent. Alternative rock became popular music in the 90s so him saying it has 'trappings of alternative rock but comes off as pop' is nonsensical per se. People here are either, in a completely blind and knee-jerk fashion, just cherrypicking a loosely-used term from the phrasing and using it to prove a point, or trying to interpret an inconsistent and vague phrasing to suit a point. Both are entirely troublesome and discouraging, and too rooted in violation of previously cited Wiki guidelines (like Undue, Cherrypick, and OR).--Lpdte77 (talk) 07:25, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi JG66, thanks for your comment! My support was in favor based on the Allmusic quote, the edit history I think can vouch for that. And yes, I've been trying to suggest exactly what you said. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:07, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support, mainly per Allmusic source. Myxomatosis57 (talk) 19:25, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support: Pop is cited together with other genres in the AllMusic and Rolling Stone reviews. It is also cited in this Record Collector review [10], where Garbage early production is defined as "industrial grunge with a shiny pop sheen". On the other hand, the review by Kyle McLaughlin at page 753 of the book 1001 Albums You Must Hear Before You Die remarks the use of "loops, tinkering, thick layers of samples and keyboards", which characterizes both electronic rock and industrial music. In the Entertainment Weekly review, Steven Mirkin compares the band to The Golden Palominos, which were an alternative rock band that adopted a heavy electronic-laden sound in the 1990s. Maybe the inclusion in the article of a genre related to electronica and/or industrial music should be considered. Lewismaster (talk) 19:40, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your input @Lewismaster:. Can you explain why "industrial grunge with a shiny pop sheen" (sheen meaning, a 'soft luster on a surface") is apparently explicit enough to represent, but something like "electronically-enhanced" or "electornically-infused" isn't? If this is legitimate, and there is no bias here, where is the presence of industrial or grunge in the infobox? Or even in the article? --Lpdte77 (talk) 22:22, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't think we are using that source specificly, we are focusing on the Allmusic review for the source, so why did you bring it up? Andrzejbanas (talk) 03:56, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Uh, Lewismaster brought it up. --Lpdte77 (talk) 07:25, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

The poll is about the inclusion of pop which I think should be there. At the same time I think that a genre with reference to electronica should be there. Lewismaster (talk) 05:55, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

"I think that a genre with reference to electronica should be there" - Why so?--Lpdte77 (talk) 07:25, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough, personally I wouldn't think it's fair for us to interpret that as "electronica" unless that's what the source says. But that's for another poll I guess. Andrzejbanas (talk) 07:00, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Why is it fair enough? Weren't you hammering down the point that terms need be explicitly stated otherwise they can't be used? Where does electronica come from, I would like to know. --Lpdte77 (talk) 07:25, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Read the previous posts: "Maybe the inclusion in the article of a genre related to electronica and/or industrial music should be considered.", I was replying to @Lewismaster:. Andrzejbanas (talk) 11:56, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Please structure your replies correctly, below the comment you want to reply to. Your comment is below Lewismaster's post that states: "At the same time I think that a genre with reference to electronica should be there". Knowing what you replied to now, my comment still applies; Lewismaster's suggestion - "the book 1001 Albums You Must Hear Before You Die remarks the use of "loops, tinkering, thick layers of samples and keyboards", which characterizes both electronic rock and industrial music. In the Entertainment Weekly review, Steven Mirkin compares the band to The Golden Palominos, which were an alternative rock band that adopted a heavy electronic-laden sound in the 1990s. Maybe the inclusion in the article of a genre related to electronica and/or industrial music should be considered." - doesn't adhere to the notion that the terms should be explicitly stated, not interpreted by editor. --Lpdte77 (talk) 13:53, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Hello. I'm back from a two-day full immersion in my real life. I was requested to give an opinion on the inclusion of pop in this poll, which I did. Pop is explicitly cited as a genre in the Erlewine article and referred to in other reviews, including the Record Collector one. It is my opinion that this is enough to consider pop as a genre covered by Garbage in this album. It is quite hard to pinpoint single genres for this album, as most reviewers write about the fusion of styles and genres in the music. My addition about the ample use of electronic sounds, remix techniques, danceable beats, keyboards and samples is signaled by many sources, but if it is not relevant to this poll, just ignore it. Lewismaster (talk) 19:09, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

@Lewismaster:, please see updates to Garbage_(album)#Composition_and_style. No it is not, it is merely one reviewer's vague allusion to a vague ill-defined 'pop' term, there are many styles cited in the section now. Giving undue weight and over-emphasizing, as Dan56 in particular has done, is against Wiki policy. P.S, did you notice that he intentionally mislead editors in the beginning of the poll subsection quoting a band member's statement, and refusing to remove it?--Lpdte77 (talk) 01:02, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support: There are pop elements in their music, mainly the catchy choruses. Of course, just pop isn't enough to describe their music, which is a mix of alternative rock, industrial rock, electronic and pop. Also, it should be mentioned last in the list. Deepblue1 (talk) 12:57, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Question of support is specifically for Allmusic's phrasing for 'pop' over Billboard's Power pop, as cited in the article. It is not based on our personal interpretation of the music. Please specify/acknowledge what your support is for. --Lpdte77 (talk) 13:46, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, I believe both should be included. Myxomatosis57 (talk) 16:17, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Which 'both'? Garbage_(album)#Composition_and_style has been updated and indicated here in a recent edit. More, direct styles/genres are up for consideration. The cited genres are alternative rock, power pop, electronic pop, electronica, and trip hop. --Lpdte77 (talk) 17:02, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I was considering both pop and power pop until I've seen an About.com source that I've given above. It further characterizes the album as a series of rock music genres. (Dance-rock, alt-rock, techno-rock, etc.) Too many genres. Myxomatosis57 (talk) 19:15, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Myxomatosis57, Yes, which overwhelm one reviewer's vague term, which again, should not be given undue weight. --Lpdte77 (talk) 21:10, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Removal of relevant quote

Deepblue1, Lewismaster, Myxomatosis57, JG66? Should what I recently restored to the article have been removed by Lapadite77? It seems like cherry picking to omit it. I want to ask just in case he reverts it again, as he had twice before ([11], [12]). Dan56 (talk) 18:56, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I think you need to remove that quote from Vig here, which you've used to support the inclusion of pop as a genre, before you start talking about who's being selective with facts. In the past, on some album talk page or other, I've read your assertion on how a musician shouldn't be seen as a reliable source when it comes to music genres … JG66 (talk) 19:18, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I didn't add the quote from VIg to the article to begin with, JG66. I was invited to this discussion before I had ever even edited this article. Dan56 (talk) 22:08, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

If you're referring to this discussion with here, I don't really think that it is really necessary anymore since we already invalidated that quote as a source for genre. It isn't the only source/argument for "pop," anyway. Myxomatosis57 (talk) 19:36, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I think Erlewine's statement is relevant and should stay, in sake of sticking right to the source. Myxomatosis57 (talk) 19:36, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

This is a complete misconstruction, actually complete lie from Dan56, one that he keeps repeating. I've never removed Allmusic's quotes, look at the edits & edit summaries. I noted Dan56's usage of redundant phrasing, reiterating what was already stated so as to over-emphasize a point - see older edits pertaining (including after he continued to edit in redundancy): [13], [14]; a recent "restore" from Dan 56 of such redundancy: [15], and my two recent edits, which include Myxomatosis57's helpful edit in making it more succinct, making it concise and accurate: [16] + [17]. This is reflect in the current state of the article. Myxomatosis57, yes Dan56's Butch Vig quote does need to be removed, because it is very misleading and will be one of the first things any editors coming in read and they might not realize it is misleading (that is is a band member's quote, not a reviewer's), especially if they don't bother to read the rest of the discussion. --Lpdte77 (talk) 21:21, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

You can take all the petty shots at me you want, if it makes it easier to accept that "pop" will be in the infobox, since that's what it appears this discussion is heading towards. Dan56 (talk) 22:10, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

As always, not responding to specific points. Your attitude and motive is now more transparent to other editors. And no it isn't. Since the Composition and Style major revision, the context/focus of a consensus has changed. Myxomatosis57 has noted he's taken it into account. Alternative rock is cited by multiple reviewers for one, and your campaigned 'pop' phrasing, referenced from one reviewer, is not remotely representative enough to be used in the infobox, in light of the multiple specific styles/genres that are cited by other reviewers in the section. We have a selection of power pop, alternative pop, electronic rock, electronica, and others, and one reviewer you campaign for is not going to be given undue weight or over-emphasized. --Lpdte77 (talk) 22:21, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Deepblue1, Re your deleted comment, if you call upholding wiki policies against undue weight, over-emphasizing + other notable already mentioned, pointing out the editor, whose fixation on this started the issue in the first place, having a history of throwing policies out the window as convenienced and countless disputes with others editors over the very same issues, willfully violating such policies here through an obsession with one reviewer's lame pop mention and a conviction to restate such reviewer's phrase in the prose... obsessing over it, then sure. Unlike others, I do bother to point out relevant behaviors to the issue that go against Wiki policy, which this blatantly does. Glad you imply you dont' and that you don't mind Dan56's editing attitudes, and apparently too don't bother to read the discussion. Did you notice the major editing on the Composition and Style section? One reviewer's vague pop mention cannot, at all, be given undue weight when there are plenty of other reviewers specifically citing genres. Do you have anything to say about Dan56 citing a band members's quote in the poll above intentionally misleading editors in the RfC, and too refusing to remove it? Or on his call here to reiterate his fixated reviewer's phrase in the content? --Lpdte77 (talk) 01:29, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Updated Poll: Inclusion of genres cited in Composition and Style

Garbage_(album)#Composition_and_style. Poll on inclusion of genres Power pop, techno-rock (which is electronic rock), and trip-hop beside Alternative rock (which is itself cited by multiple reviewers). Edit notifying: JG66, Myxomatosis57, Deepblue1, Lewismaster.

• Support per referenced material in Garbage_(album)#Composition_and_style → Billboard's: "acting on the premise that more is more, foursome Garbage thrashes out power pop with enough skill and passion to rate among the cream of the alternative crop." ^[26] , and About.com: "the album "was steeped in alt-rock, but hits like “Only Happy It Rains” had a dance element to them that distinguished the band from many of their angst-rock peers." Grierson also further categorized the album as "dance-rock" and "techno-rock". ^[24] --Lpdte77 (talk) 01:42, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. And trip-hop - Addicted to Noise: "surprisingly non-guitar rock mix of ambient noise, shifting trip-hop beats, grinding jungle rhythms and an ocean-size chunk of buzzing noise that, somehow, gels and rises above the din thanks to catchy hooks and killer song construction."^[25], and Metro Weekly: "a heavy mix of electronic pop and guitar rock with samples, electronica and trip-hop beats thrown into the mix."^[26] --Lpdte77 (talk) 05:19, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

They characterize the beats as "trip-hop", not the album. Dan56 (talk) 08:23, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment "Dance-rock" is verified by footnote 24, "techno-rock isn't. Dan56 (talk) 09:00, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Can you clarify? I see both are cited by the same source (About.com/footnote 24).--Lpdte77 (talk) 19:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't know who added that text to the article, but About.com's article doesn't mention "techno-rock" anywhere. Dan56 (talk) 20:06, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Myxomatosis57 added the text "Grierson also further categorized the album as "dance-rock" and "techno-rock"", based on the statement "Three years later, Garbage returned with Version 2.0, a more streamlined approach to the techno/dance/alt-rock sound of their debut" in the source.--Lpdte77 (talk) 22:29, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Comment: is About.com even considered WP:Reliable source? I've been searching around, but I can't find it - but I swore I read some discussion before where a bunch of admins were talking about the site not being RS. Something along the lines of About.com copying entire articles from Wikipedia and therefore being classed as a MIRROR. I don't know whether the discussion was just a bunch of admins complaining, or if the discussion blossomed in to something more serious (a Wiki policy), but I'll search around and see if I can find it again (doubt it: this was over a year ago). Homeostasis07 (talk) 00:47, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

As Myxomatosis57 pointed out before: list of suggested sources and table of critics. --Lpdte77 (talk) 05:37, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support power pop and dance rock and Do not support techno-rock per Dan56 Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:47, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

@Lapadite77:, could you explain how "techno/dance/alt-rock sound of their debut" is without a doubt "techno-rock"? Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:02, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

It clearly denotes techno rock, dance rock, and alternative rock. It is a short hand way of writing it, without needing to state rock after each of them. Many reviewers do this (normally with slashes, dashes, commas) when noting multiple genres. I don't understand why this is something disputed, it is an obvious practice and direct in what it conveys. What did you think they meant when separating genres with slashes or dashes? Or did I misinterpret your question? --Lpdte77 (talk) 02:49, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support power pop, and do not support dance rock and techno rock: Techno-rock isn't even really a thing (according to Wikipedia - the page just redirects to Electronic rock). The 1990's section of the Electronic rock page in particular focuses entirely on Big beat and Industrial rock acts like Ministry, Nine Inch Nails, Coil, Foetus, Fatboy Slim, The Chemical Brothers, The Prodigy, The Crystal Method, Lunatic Calm, etc. The Wikipedia article that Techno-rock would itself re-direct to would contradict the claim: Garbage has practically no similarity to any of those acts list (aside from maybe "Vow (Torn Apart)" and some 1995-era NIN). Even so, it wouldn't be considered a notable enough genre to include in the album Infobox. And a band like Garbage would have no business being directed to Dance-rock at all. According to the article, Dance-rock was an early 80's movement including the likes of New Order, Eurythmics, Talking Heads, Blondie, Duran Duran, Depeche Mode, etc. Garbage may have been influenced by the movement, but none of the sources provided establish it to be one of this album's primary genres. Homeostasis07 (talk) 00:48, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Comment: Your argument appears to be mostly based on your personal opinion and interpretation of the genre articles. Techno rock (which, according to the article, is also used for electronic rock) may be disqualified due to wording, which is a completely seperate issue; however, it is a fallacy to think that every electronic/techno rock music produced in 1990s must be a part of the big beat/industrial rock, just based on what is focused in 1990s section. (Also note that music reviewers found industrial rock influences in Garbage's music, according to the main band article.) On the dance-rock issue , Tim Grierson clearly labels it as a dance-rock; I don't really get what is wrong here. Myxomatosis57 (talk) 10:49, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Myxomatosis57, can you state what your support is for? --Lpdte77 (talk) 05:18, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Comment: Is this a joke? All that was WP:OR. "Techno-rock isn't even really a thing (according to Wikipedia" Reviewer states it, it is a page on Wikipedia, and on the Wikipedia page it clearly states "also commonly referred to as synthrock, electrorock, techno-rock, or digital rock", which is the case for countless of other genres, like, off the top of my head, Synthpop, Baroque_pop, Electroclash, Experimental_rock, Funk metal, Nu_metal. --Lpdte77 (talk) 03:08, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support for power pop, dance rock, and techno-rock as electronic rock, the more used term. I think trip hop should be in there too. It's cited by a lot of critics, especially for songs like Queer and Milk. Critics have also used downtempo to describe it. Amber5st (talk) 20:16, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

• Just out of curiosity, where are the sources you are getting these from @Amber5st:? You need them to back up your vote per WP:RS, WP:OR, and WP:SUBJECTIVE. Andrzejbanas (talk) 00:07, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
• I agree with that. Electronic rock is the one more commonly used, the one most recognizable, so it should be written as such, especially given how much electronic/electornic rock is referenced by reviewers with respect to the record anyway. --Lpdte77 (talk) 03:08, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support for power pop, no support for dance rock, support for electronic rock (rather than techno-rock). Why is alternative rock not included in the poll? Why isn't pop-rock? Is pop-rock synonymous with "dance rock" and/or with "power pop"?

BBC considers it pop-rock.

Rolling Stones references both pop and rock.

NME says they're alternative rock.

PopMatters describes it as pop and alternative rock.

MusicOHM describes it as pop.

The Guardian makes a lot of references to pop.

Stylus characterises it as pop-rock.

Willhesucceed (talk) 08:51, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support power pop, alternative rock and dance-rock per sources. Myxomatosis57 (talk) 19:05, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support power pop, alternative rock and dance-rock, per Myxomatosis57. Rationalobserver (talk) 15:32, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

lost master tapes / 20th anniversary edition sticker

When the Absolute Garbage compilation has been poduced, nobody could find the original master tapes. A permanent loss of the original master tapes should become a major chapter of the Garbage (album) page. The 20th anniversary re-issue however, released 2015, wears a sticker saying "remastered from the original analog tapes". Have those been found again between The Absolute Collection (released 2012 in Australia, Only Happy When It Rains still only 3:47 from damage) and remastered Australian collection/20th Anniversary self-titled (both released 2015, OHWIR is 3:57 again on both)?

Version 2.0 material is different on Absolute Garbage as well (sounds of Push It are missing), but the Version 2.0 master tapes were never reported as lost. Why is Push It incomplete then?

It's totally confusing that they did a lot of work with collecting a new master tape from damaged 16Bit DATs and alternate recordings, which is incorret anyway from the damages on the DATs and the incorrect alternate material. When, being in a 16Bit situation anyway, simply extracting a copy of the self-titled cd to a digital image would have been the 100% correct and complete source for a new 16Bit master tape. A possible answer could be, that the DATs possibly were multi-tracks. But why was it more important to enhance the sound of repaired and therefore incorrect individual tracks than to have the correct songs? All Garbage albums as originally released will sound state of the art even in decades from now.

Re: RfCs

God damn, what a fucking waste those RfCs were, about an album I still haven't bothered listening to... Piotr Jr. (talk) 01:46, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Removal of 20th Anniversary tracklistings

Who was the idiot who removed the tracklistings for the various editions of Garbage's first two albums? 174.215.216.255 (talk) 04:29, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

20th Anniversary Edition songs

The 9th song in the CD2 of the 20th Anniversary Edition: I think that's a Vic Chesnutt song, called "Kick My Ass" not "Kiss My Ass" And the track list of the "Super Deluxe" Editions with lots more mixes and demo versions are missing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnLrwmO6cM4 80.26.161.157 (talk) 17:00, 3 January 2023 (UTC)